Evan Dorkin ([info]evandorkin) wrote,
@ 2007-11-06 23:37:00
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Impending Small-Time, Temporary Doom?
So, if the screenwriters strike lasts for more than a couple of weeks, do you think we're in for a flood of shitty comic books coming from fanboy /girl union members with time on their hands and/or high concepts in their files? 

Brrrr. 

I mean, I'm exaggerating here (I hope), and I'm sympathetic to the writers, even if I hate most of their work and don't give a rip if late night talk shows are in reruns, the 2008 pilot season might be fucked, or the next Saw movie might be delayed.  I just wince thinking about the possible influx of yet more overvalued and under-talented Hollywood dinks into the already fattened Previews phonebook of horrors.

On the positive side, at least I'm not working for anyone who might want to replace me with some movie hacks because they have some cache from the "real world". I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel and DC was making calls to see who's free in L.A. to work up some JLA or Spider-Man pitches. Because, yes, we love our comics, and we supposedly respect ourselves nowadays, but boy do we fall all over our sad selves when somebody from the real world of film or television deigns to lend their name or talents to one of our lowly comic book projects. And they all sell so well, too. Cripes. When's the last time you ever saw a movie or tv show trumpet loudly and proudly that they snagged a comic book creator to work on their product? We still pretty much suck, despite what some newspaper articles say. Feh. It's amazing how many tinseltown goofs have their names plastered all over Previews nowadays, and half of them aren't even writing their own fucking books. Which might be a good thing, when you consider the Richard Donners of the world may actually be contributing to the literature of comics.

Please, Hollywood Screenwriters of America, I beg of you, comics are fucked enough, just keep doing the great job you're doing fucking up the movies, won't you? The strike won't last forever, take a nice vacation, work on that novel, blog a bit, do some drugs. Comics aren't hip and they won't make you rich or guarantee you get a production deal. Just look away, nothing to see here.

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[info]rstevens
2007-11-07 05:08 am UTC (link)
Where do I volunteer to write all the sitcoms on network television for a week? I've got a spare half hour and fair's fair.

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[info]rstevens
2007-11-07 05:09 am UTC (link)
(30 Rock is excepted, of course)

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[info]granolademonic
2007-11-07 05:59 am UTC (link)
I just watched 30 Rock on Netflix, and I say we let Alec Baldwin verbally use his idiot kid as often as he wants, 'cause that's some funny TV.

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[info]jackolantern
2007-11-07 02:29 pm UTC (link)
Public radio's This American Life did a segment with parents who listened to that rant by Baldwin and were hugely relieved that they weren't the only parent that went ballistic on their kids.

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[info]inkstuds
2007-11-07 05:52 am UTC (link)
At least you can be confident knowing that even if tv guys do more comix, it will still be the marvel drek that we are all used to.

didja check out the yak i did with Ware and Heer about the walt and skeezix, it was lots of fun.

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[info]granolademonic
2007-11-07 05:58 am UTC (link)
Wait.

Hold up, now.

The next Saw movie's gonna be delayed??!?


Incidentally, I still plan to review DORK; I realize it's somewhat absurd to do so at this point, but I want to anyway. Moving has just fucked me up; three months later, I'm still depressed and out of sorts.

Mayhap 'cause I'm in Idaho.

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[info]tormentedartist
2007-11-07 06:33 am UTC (link)
I can't wait to read your review man. Also you should do a piece on Ripple. Which although it isn't an Evan Dorkin production still is pretty amazing.

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Bless you.
[info]tormentedartist
2007-11-07 06:31 am UTC (link)
Thank you for saying what a lot of us have been thinking. We don't need any of these hollywood fucks to mess up more comics.

You rule.

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Re: Bless you.
[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, we can fuck it up all by ourselves.

Of course, anyone can come on in to the democratic, easy-to make cesspool of comics. Everybody into the cesspool, room for everyone. I really don't care. I'm not jealous or worried, because my work sells generally sells poorly, so nothing can really hurt me. I'm not a third-stringer at Marvel who could get less work because guys who wrote for some sitcom nobody actually liked got jobs on Deathlok or whatever the hell. And nobody forces me to buy Spider Man getting his eyeball eaten.

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[info]doodlesthegreat
2007-11-07 07:11 am UTC (link)
"In this issue, the role of J. Jonah Jameson will be played by Paul Reiser..."

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[info]oilyrags
2007-11-07 08:15 am UTC (link)
Sorry man, bigger talent pool=more actual talent (more actual non-talent, too, but sometimes you gotta take the good with the bad.)

Although I don't want to read a 'graphic novel' of "The World According To Jim" anymore than anyone else, if any of the three "HBO Davids" (for example) suddenly decided - as a result of this strike or for any other reason - to write comics, that'd definitely get my positive attention.

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 04:00 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, man, more people = more fuck ups. But seriously -- comics has a talent pool, marvel and DC aren't interested in it. If more folks want to come in and actually make comics, say, the way Gerard Way is for DHC (His band is useless, and I haven't read his comic, but people seem to agree he is actually making this comic and is giving it a real go rather than shitting it out because he can, because he's from the real world and has a name) then fine, I'm not a tyrant, and I used the word "exaggerating" on purpose in that thar little rant. There are always exceptions to rules and comedy, please, folks, kep that in mind.

However, an influx of "names" or at least folks with name projects attached to their names, won't be a good thing for comics. These folks will largely not take their duties seriously, could bump established or work-a-day writers off projects, glut the market with new books from the big 2 designed to give some names work, glut the market with more slogged-out drivel from Virgin and Fox comics, etc. A real influx would distract retailers and fans and one could envision a lot of publishers working hard to add names to their roster to keep up and have some press releases Wizard might pay attention to.

On the plus side, maybe it will free up some time for Dan Clowes to do another issue of Eightball. And sure, perhaps some out of left field folks and some professionals with chops and real interest will throw in with the funnybook field and produce something interesting or even great. In general, the Hollywood writer has produced a lot of middling junk, a lot of them never bother to learn how to write comics, lend their names to projects, or just plain suck. I know folks out there like Kevin Smith and the Babylon Five guy, but they leave me more than cold. I think the Buffy guy and I'm sure a few others seem to get it more than others.

I'm just a little worried Hollywood writers, with their time off and need to work and be the geniuses they are, might look upon comics with their cold eyes like the Martians from War of the Worlds, and decide it's time to get in on the "action". If, as Jennifer deGuzman says below, agents are blindly contacting small press outfits where making money is a happy accident more often than not, we could be in for some weird, clueless shit in our neck of the entertainment woods.

Or, nothing will happen. I'm not a seer, just a whiner.

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[info]oilyrags
2007-11-07 06:09 pm UTC (link)
> comics has a talent pool, marvel and DC aren't interested in it.

Truer than it is untrue, but I think the real truth is their kinda sorta interested in it. WB and whoever owns Marvel now definitely are not, though

> In general, the Hollywood writer has produced a lot of middling junk, a lot of them never bother to learn how to write comics, lend their names to projects, or just plain suck.

Truer than truth itself. I read more comics than I watch TV because IMO, the top 5% of comics is better than the top 5% of TV. The guys who's names I dropped before, though, might make the top 1% of TV about equal in quality to the top 1% of comics. But when you're talking about masters of different media it really is getting into apples and oranges territory. Anyway, so far as I know, Chase, Simon and Milch have no interest in comics, so it really is a non-starter as far as that goes.

> know folks out there like Kevin Smith and the Babylon Five guy, but they leave me more than cold. I think the Buffy guy and I'm sure a few others seem to get it more than others.

I don't like any of those guys.

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 07:35 pm UTC (link)
WB doesn't even know what the fuck DC does most of the time. Unless someone shows a WB exec a comic where Superman kisses Batman, I doubt they know what's what. The publishing is nothing to them, the licenses are all that matters. I know when I was doing some stuff for DC some of the higher ups basically admitted they were happy when WB changed top execs because it would mean they had time before the new regime paid them any attention. Marvel's owners could care less about the quality or content of the comics either. Those folks have meetings and talk about everything but the publishing. The publishing is a petrie dish for other endeavors.

I don't know who Chase, Simon or Milch is, I have to admit. I don't watch any network tv, dumped HBO et al a few years ago. We don't wear it as a badge of honor, coolness or snobbishness, we just weren't watching any Showtime or HBO and didn't want to pay for it. The baby meant less tv time, and it helped us wean off the habit, by and large. If I could dump the networks I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm sure there's some shows I'd enjoy, but everything seems to go south that I do like, and nothing holds our attention enough to make appointments with it and keep up. And everything is so slick, and I don't like reality shows (which are all contrived stunt/game shows, when one gets down to it, more or less), or sports, or any sitcoms I happen to catch a bit of, or even wrestling these days. I just don't get much from it. We tend to watch old movies on TCM, a few things here and there on BBC America or some smaller niche channel, and new stuff on DVD when we find it on Peerflix. Or I watch crap at the Lawgivers some Fridays. I'm fairly unaware of what's popular, have been for years, which is why I can't pitch anything to mad, I guess. I'm stuck in the 80's-90's. Or 30's. Forget music or movies, I dunno who the hell America's sweethearts are, unless they're drunk or high or adopting and get on the cover of the supermarket tabloids. Like, wtf's a Jake Gylenhall --?

Anyway, a longwinded way of saying, if you namecheck folks, and they're modern practitioners who aren't a Lohan or a Spears or a rehab baby, I'm clueless, so drop hints.

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[info]oilyrags
2007-11-07 09:18 pm UTC (link)
David Chase is the "Sopranos" guy. David Simon is the "The Wire" (and "Homicide") guy. David Milch is the "Deadwood" (and "NYPD Blue") guy.

None of them is a singular mastermind for their shows, so in comic book terms they're a little more like an editor than a writer, but all of them have put together satisfying, many-character story arcs with genuinely adult themes, plots, and dialog. I'm not one of those jerks who thinks comics AREN'T for KIDS, DAMNIT! But I do think that as long as some portion of the market is trying to follow the comics audience into adulthood, creators should go all the way with it, and not just add titties and swears to the power fantasies.

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Got it, thanks for clarifying. I couldn't get into the Sopranos, let's just keep it at that. Like they need another viewer and care. Never saw the Wire, heard good things about it from some folks. Ditto Deadwood.

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[info]jdeguzman
2007-11-07 08:24 am UTC (link)
Dan and I already got an email from the agent of several writers saying how interested his clients are in writing comics, what with the strike and all. Match that with the submission we got recently in which the writer listed all of the unproduced screenplays he'd written (which of course he was submitting in graphic novel form), and I'm pretty sure I want to steer clear of that scene.

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[info]sclerotic_rings
2007-11-07 04:18 pm UTC (link)
Oh, dear. People who can't get screenplays produced who want to make comics that won't be read. Is it just me, or can I hear the beginning riffs from the Jackass theme song in the background?

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 07:37 pm UTC (link)
I think some folks think comics is a good end run to pitching a project cold, it gets the name and concept into print, and that can be seen and devoured quickly by readers and producers, and if twelve dinks on the web ballyhoo it, it could get optioned because of the "buzz". Sounds stupid? It is. But it has happened.

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[info]mercuryeric
2007-11-07 09:46 pm UTC (link)
People who can't get screenplays produced who want to make comics that won't be read.

Wow. That's some Zen-type shit, there.

Well put. Very well put.

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[info]klaproth_1
2007-11-07 11:43 am UTC (link)
Paul Thomas Anderson could be the next Spiderman writer and give us 300 pages of nothing.

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[info]jbacardi
2007-11-07 05:47 pm UTC (link)
As opposed to what we're getting now?

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[info]jevanlee
2007-11-07 12:28 pm UTC (link)
"When's the last time you ever saw a movie or tv show trumpet loudly and proudly that they snagged a comic book creator to work on their product?"

Welcome to Eltingville?

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 04:00 pm UTC (link)
Not even.

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[info]not_robolizard
2007-11-07 04:35 pm UTC (link)
How about Heroes trumpeting Jeph Loeb more than the show's actual creators? Or Lost trumpeting Brian K. Vaughan?

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 07:53 pm UTC (link)
I can't think of any other examples -- and where exactly did they trumpet this? Was this all over the trades, or at Comicon and Wizard and the internet? That's not the real world, that's not even the real entertainment world. Maybe there were some newspaper articles focusing on the creator. Was Loeb really trumpeted in the entertainment press more than the show's actual creators? I can't say, I'm just curious, because that sounds odd to me if such was the case. Maybe he was just trumpeted more in the comics press. Again, other folks would have to chime in on that.

But even if you've got those two, that's not a lot a beans on the other side of the scale. Comics companies and "news outlets" get verklempt when Joe Hollywood or Jane Book Writer dabbles in comics. Hollywood generally could care less when Joe Comics is working on a script. It doesn't impress anyone much, unless they're already a Gaiman or Miller or Clowes fan or comics fan.
I'm not denigrating the medium here, I'm just saying comics still is, and acts like, the red-headed stepchild of the entertainment industry, despite all the recent accolades and press.

This is largely the Diamond exclusive folks and their fans I'm talking about, and the genre publishers who emulate them, since that's the engine running the medium/industry/fan press/etc. The folks at, say, Drawn and Quarterly might not give a crap that Nic Cage and the Wayans Brothers have had their names in Previews (I sort of assume that's the case), and I might not give a shit, but no one cares what the small timers have to say. I'm more excited to hear they're reprinting Noel Sickles than to hear Deepak Chopra or Jenna Jameson is doing some sort of thing, sort of, with comics. OR even Lethem or Chabon, to be honest.

Anyway, getting off topic, and rambling, sorry. It's not actually a big deal, all said and done.

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[info]jevanlee
2007-11-07 06:00 pm UTC (link)
I clearly remember the announcer guy saying "from comic book guy Evan Dorkin comes a show about comic book guys" in the promos.

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 07:38 pm UTC (link)
You're clearly high. And even if that isn't the case, that's still not trumpeting loudly.

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[info]radiotoothhurty
2007-11-07 12:46 pm UTC (link)
I didn't know about this. If you flip around news stories it's a hilarious take on industrial action. For a start, there isn't one example of something that will be held up that doesn't seem amusing because it's so trivial compared with, say a nurses strike and the idea that they have to cancel the show because Letterman can't have a chat with someone without someone else writing his chat for him makes me laugh (I know it's more complicated than that).

It's also funny reading about the frenzy of people trying to finish-up scripts and projects before the strike, again for things that seem trivial, which gives you the impression that while the writers want a better deal, their hearts aren't in it. I can't imagine that shipbuilders would pull in overtime to finish off a battleship before going on strike. You've got to sympathise when the guy who made the story up and who is only getting two cents per DVD and wants more and there's a knock on effect to all kinds of people's livelihoods but on the surface the whole thing lends itself to humour.


As for Screenplay writers writing comics, isn't that a bigger gamble for the writers than, say, knocking out a novel? How would it work? Would they be paired up with an artist who knows the language of comics? What would their contribution be? Story? Surely the limiting factor in comics being more successful isn't ideas? In my mind comics survives the onslaught of all of the other forms of entertainment because of ideas.

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 08:02 pm UTC (link)
It's not much of a gamble, some guys likely have ins or conceived ins to talk to marvel and DC and DHC et al, some could elbow up to smaller presses, etc. People will certainly respond more quickly to a call from a Hollywood agent or writer than joe off the street con attendee, I bet. Screenwriting is more similar to comics writing than prose. Some folks might be happy to do four issues of a character at the big two, which would actually mean a check. SOme would be happy to keep busy and try to establish intellectual property and readership with the smaller presses. I dunno, I don't see it as a gamble, and anything's a gamble in some respect. How well do novels sell to publishers, and then to readers? Lots of comics sell more than many/most novels. Certainly the mainstream funnybooks. A lot of folks writing for Marvel and DC don't have to take teaching jobs in the daytime to support their writing.

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[info]mikeisenberg
2007-11-07 02:02 pm UTC (link)
"When's the last time you ever saw a movie or tv show trumpet loudly and proudly that they snagged a comic book creator to work on their product?"

Well, there was "Neverwhere." Also Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale working on "Heroes."

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Keep going. And tell me the average Entertainment Tonight press blah blah mentions these guys loudly and often. It doesn't compare in the least to the way the comics field crows about getting the third writer from some sitcom on a comic. We're still sad, face it. At least the Wizard stuff is sad, and Wizard very much reflects the Direct market in which most of us live, die, and bitch.

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[info]jbacardi
2007-11-07 05:48 pm UTC (link)
There's always Stan Lee's latest cluster fuck "reality show"...

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Stan Lee is a case by himself. He's the only real celebrity comic books have, I think, and a lot of people still don't know who he is.

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[info]jackolantern
2007-11-07 02:33 pm UTC (link)
I don't think that the strike will last that long. Which is just as well, because we'd just get that many more excuses for delays in a monthly book from people who are used to knocking out a script every week.

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 08:03 pm UTC (link)
The reports on the strike cite a number of folks who believe this will be a haul. But one never knows.

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[info]akiramich
2007-11-07 02:46 pm UTC (link)
Maybe they'll all go work for Vince McMahon instead. Lord know that show can't get and shittyier [sp]...

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comics writers snagged by TV
(Anonymous)
2007-11-07 02:49 pm UTC (link)
(Poster name: Jason Michelitch)

I seem to remember a bit of fanfare around "Lost" snagging Brian K Vaughan as their story editor...but my memory is weak, and I can't recall how much was from the comics world and how much from the "real" entertainment world.

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Re: comics writers snagged by TV
[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Mostly comics. Some people, not saying you, who are into comics tend to mistake the comics world for the world. In the same way music nuts will think a certain underground band is overexposed because all the zines and websites and college stations played them. The rest of the world has never heard of them. meanwhile.
People have to remember, no one in comics is really famous. Stan lee, maybe. Even Frank Miller isn't a household name. And most households don't know most directors or writers anyway, so what is a household name other than what's in the tabloids? Which is off topic.

Anyway, Newsarama and the Buyer's Guide isn't news.

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[info]sclerotic_rings
2007-11-07 04:14 pm UTC (link)
You weren't thinking anything I wasn't thinking as well. Considering the legacy of Straczynski and Whedon on their frabjous return to comics, I'm wondering how many other creators of "cult" TV shows (to steal from the definition of "Cult movie" from The Cynic's Dictionary, a cult TV show is any show seen at least 50 times by about as many people) will suddenly decide that comics are the way of the future, considering that they get the same 50 fans and a lot less studio interference. Elvis help us all when that happens, because we don't need yet another revival of Alien Nation.

Completely unrelated, remember when I was planning on sending you that Aurora Prehistoric Scenes Tyrannosaurus? I found another one for you, and it's going out before Christmas. Let's just say it's payment for that copy of The Hell's Half-Acre Herald I subjected you to earlier.

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-07 08:04 pm UTC (link)
You will deserve something more than that if it shows up. Holy heck.

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Ironic that this happens as the "Heroes Graphic Novel" ships?
[info]thekamisama
2007-11-08 01:45 am UTC (link)
I wrote about this today too. I think I was a bit more mean spirited and it was also related to an earlier post bitching about Hollywood types going to comics to slum even before the strike.

But it seems like a few people have realized this could be getting flushed down the poop shoot soon if the strike lasts very long.

Of course the 4-5 Marvel fans who are waiting on late books from TV/film writers they wooed in post-Whedon might finally see that crap come out?

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[info]lord_hatred
2007-11-08 03:22 am UTC (link)
Maybe we'll be lucky and one of the WGA folks comes in with a new innovative approach that kicks Marvel/DC in the ass to actually produce non-editorially driven comics again. (notable exceptions currently published not meant to be slighted)

Yeah, we know it won't happen. I don't expect another Jodorowski to make the switch to comics but maybe we'll at least get James Robinson back for a good little run again. Maybe John Rogers will bring his good screenwriter friends in to DC.

Sad that all anybody seems to talk about is that dumbass Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk thing. I fully expect the next major ideas be:

Marvel: Captain America vs Iran

and

DC: Wonder Woman's new sidekick effeminate Robin

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[info]rjwhite
2007-11-08 04:54 pm UTC (link)
I fully expect the next major ideas be:

Marvel: Captain America vs Iran

and

DC: Wonder Woman's new sidekick effeminate Robin

So... then, you expect Frank Miller to be writing more?

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[info]divertimento
2007-11-10 01:54 am UTC (link)
So, how much of that invasion of comics happened during the strike nearly 20 years ago? The main thing I remember is Sam Hamm coming off writing the Batman film to write some okey-dokey issues of Batman comics. Was there more than that?

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[info]evandorkin
2007-11-10 07:12 am UTC (link)
Comics weren't hip enough then, there were fewer geek screenwriters, and few projects being optioned as films or video games or tv shows. There's a lot of precedent now for anyone from prose or film to step into the kiddie pool. Back then they would have looked at a striking writer as if he had set a dog on fire if he announced he was going to write comic books during the time off.

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(Anonymous)
2007-11-10 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Couldn't agree more w/ Evan.

Joe Gross

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(Anonymous)
2007-11-10 06:30 pm UTC (link)
I recently interviewed Mark Waid on his new gig at Boom! for a piece for Decibel magazine and he put it well, noting that comics' relationship to movies and TV is roughly that of "the fat kid on the playground who gives you his lunch if you play with him."

Joe Gross

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